Charmilles Edm Form 20 Znc Manual
Charmilles Leads a New Millennium of EDM Technology. Form 20 ZNC machine, was presented. Is the perfect marriage of a manual machine. Dec 21, 2009 - Manual X and Y, with a CNC controlled Z (or that's how I rea. The third is EDM tapping.it's not used a lot in my shop, but is a lifesaver when. I would take a Form20 over a ZNC 2LC anyday. Moving on to specific brands: If I could find a used Charmilles Roboform 20 in good shape, I'd be a happy guy.
Hi bryan-machine: ZNC sinkers are a pretty stupid design in my opinion, because they miss out on a couple of really really useful abilities that come with full 3 axis CNC motion. The first is orbiting.incredibly helpful to allow you to flush down a hole without drilling a gazillion flush holes in the trode, to burn without unwanted taper, and to size your job without the pain of making different sized rougher and finisher electrodes. The second is the ability to vector a burn.great for picking out sharp corners, creating angled holes and doing arrayed burns like slots around a periphery. The third is EDM tapping.it's not used a lot in my shop, but is a lifesaver when someone forgets to tap a hole in a hardened block or the material is a cast iron bastard to tap. The fourth is the ability to burn to finer finishes more consistently (using orbiting and its better flushing ability). The fifth is the ability to gang the jobs or the trodes in the tank and burn unattended for longer periods of time.
I do a lot of sinker work, and it's not all mold work, but a mix with a good bit of jobbing. I use all 3 CNC axes all the time, and I'd never go back to a machine without. Cheers Marcus. 3R made / makes a cnc add on orbiter.
Hansvedt offered one OEM on one of their machines. Both designs have about 5.0 mm travel in X and Y As for a cnc sinker one is in our shops futur some time soon when I get caught up and will have more time to travel to an auction. There are smoking deals out there for small 4 axis sinkers like the Mondo Star 20 that was up for auction on the 15th I agree with Marcus that a ZNC is dumb. I would take a Form20 over a ZNC 2LC anyday. Most Form20's came with an orbiter, the ZNC2LC's did not, seems like it was an option.
Thanks, that's an excellent answer - one really wants CNC for orbiting, sliding into corners, and now that I think about it, sliding tapered trodes to make undercuts. (I only asked because they seemed to much less costly, and I thought 'hmmm, is this a good trade-off?'
). So, how much grief am I likely to get into buying a used CNC sinker? I've never used one, only seen them at trade shows.
I'd prefer to use copper trodes because I can machine those without making the cloud of doom. Is there some particularly good dealer in refurb units? Hi bryanmachine: You don't NEED a full blown CNC sinker; a sinker with a good orbiter will do quite a bit, and they're plentiful on the used market. In fact, Gromax makes an orbiter that's a stepper driven standalone unit capable of being added to any manual machine, and it works very well. I had one on a Hansvedt SM 150B and I built a lot of molds with it before I upgraded to a full CNC machine (also a Hansvedt).
The one thing an aftermarket orbiter will not give you is the ability to synchronize the Z axis with the X or Y axis of the orbiter.they move independently, so a vectored burn in 2 or 3 axes is not possible if one of the axes has to be Z. Some of the integrated machines with orbiters may have the ability to synchronize with Z.I've never run one of these so I don't know for sure, but it's a logical capability to add because it's useful for moldmaking (burning subgates) and moldmaking is still the single biggest use for these machines.
One major limitation of orbiter machines is that the x and Y axis strokes are small; typically 10mm or less, so you can't use them for multiple cavity burns, but they'll still do everything else, and do it very well. Regarding buying used machines; of course it's a crap shoot, but here's my experience: I bought the SM 150B used from a dealer.clapped out piece of junk, but with care I could still make it do good work. Adding the orbiter improved it a millionfold. My replacement machine has had some teething troubles; boards and servomotors have been replaced, but I've put about $4000.00 into it and done perhaps $250,000.00 of burning with it, so the tradeoff hasn't been too bad.
With manual sinkers, you have to know a lot about the EDM process to get them to burn well, but once that's mastered, it's pretty straightforward. CNC sinkers fall into two classes; the dirt simple ones with only motion control and manual burn settings (like my Hansvedt Foreman) or machines with adaptive controls where you tell the machine what you want to get as your end result, and the machine finds the best way to get there on its own. These second type are WAY easier to use and give a better, more efficient result in 99% of cases, so they're worth the money especially now that used prices have come down so much. Used is fine with one caveat.DON'T BUY AN ORPHAN!!! These things can turn into boat anchors really fast if you can't get them fixed, and there's a lot more going on in their innards than just motion control. NOBODY will give you schematics.not even a sniff at them, so even if you're electronically literate, they're not easy to fix.
Moving on to specific brands: If I could find a used Charmilles Roboform 20 in good shape, I'd be a happy guy. They're very accurate machines capable of very fine burns, and they're compact, with a very versatile control that's pretty robust too (except the Eproms I'm told) My Hansvedt Foreman is not bad.it's accurate, and I can do fine burns on it, but the farting around to get decent burn settings is a nuisance, and it doesn't have the ability to do things like spherical orbits with progressive burn settings and progressive orbiting like the Charmilles can, so it's a lot more painful to use overall and takes longer to get to the same end point. Agies, of course enjoy a fine reputation too, but I've never run one, so I can't speak for or against it. Same for Sodick. Most of the others (Belmont, Okamoto, Elox Deckel etc), are orphans or close to it. Regarding copper for trodes.that's all I use (and copper tungsten sometimes) for the same reason you're contemplating copper.
Be aware though, that you will not be as efficient as a shop that can handle graphite.you can burn at least 50% faster with graphite on anything bigger than about 1/4' square, and your trodes will wear less too, so you'll make fewer trodes if you set up for the black cloud of death. Regarding used dealers: I've dealt with three, and two have been first class; the other not so much. Arrow EDM for the second Hansvedt has been really top notch for timely and competent tech support (the machine was bought on Ebay). I can recommend them with confidence. EDM Network sold me a reconditioned wire EDM and they have been first class as well, so I'm pleased to recommend them too. The third dealer (where I bought the thrashed SM 150B) shall remain nameless! I'd call EDM Network first.I dealt with Larry Wetmore in California, and have only good things to say about the experience.
If you end up with a Hansvedt, deal with Arrow EDM for service and PHONE THEM BEFORE YOU SHIP THE MACHINE!!! If you don't rig it properly it will be smashed up junk when it gets to your door. Cheers Marcus.
Some great info in this thread but it still doesn't answer the actual question in my mind.which is.what is the actual advantage of the CNC programmable Z axis manual sinker over a conventional manual sinker? Because the ZNC machines 'look' like full blown CNC at first glance, some tend to compare them to CNC and therefore declare them 'dumb'.but I think the actual perspective should be to compare them to standard manual sinkers with some 'upscale' aspects. What I want to know is what exactly are those upscale features.
I imagine one would be better burn rate control and memory to repeat the burn in the future just by keying in the original program. I imagine one down side would be added electronic complexity compared to full manual sinker without enough benefits to outweigh the potential failure mode presented by more electronics.but you tell me. 'CNC sinkers fall into two classes; the dirt simple ones with only motion control and manual burn settings (like my Hansvedt Foreman) or machines with adaptive controls where you tell the machine what you want to get as your end result, and the machine finds the best way to get there on its own.
These second type are WAY easier to use and give a better, more efficient result in 99% of cases, so they're worth the money especially now that used prices have come down so much.' Which I think partly answers Milacron's question - the.impression. I get is the ZNC machines (at least in one flyer?) have auto-burn. And gromax lists orbiters right there. So it might be that ZNC should be thought of more as an automatically-burn-controlled manual machine than a crippled CNC. But I don't know that for sure. This thread has persuaded me that I want a CNC machine with smart controller.
Whole point being to make weird shapes in my 1 shot weird parts correctly on the first try. And of course: 2. Used is fine with one caveat.DON'T BUY AN ORPHAN!!! These things can turn into boat anchors really fast if you can't get them fixed, and there's a lot more going on in their innards than just motion control.
NOBODY will give you schematics.not even a sniff at them, so even if you're electronically literate, they're not easy to fix. I'll check out the folks you mentioned. Sodick has a new (to me) small machine called a C32 that is supposed to be 'value' priced - I'll try to get an actual number. Hi Milacron: In a nutshell, the ZNC concept's principal advantage is that it replaces the hydraulic system and the Moog valve that are the traditional Achilles heel of the old ram machines. The benefits include faster response time to the current sensing circuitry, better ability to hold Z position for orbiting, lower maintenance, and way less noise. Some ZNC machines also have adaptive control I believe (controls that modify spark conditions in response to gap conditions), but' so far as I know, they're all far more primitive than the true adaptive controls of a high end machine like a Charmilles or an Agie or a Sodick.
Edm Form 20
That's it, so far as I know. Cheers Marcus. Implmex is right on, I've run both hyd. Machines and ZNCs, first one I can think of and ran ('85-'86) was the Eltee TRM 20 with a CP 30? Power supply, it was there first model after their hyd. Main reason for znc was for the control of the Z ballscrew and gap control, to difficult to do that with servo valves/hyd since everything else was computer I presume.
That was a great machine for a small manual sinker, had manual x and y ballscrews also! Have also run and still have a 3R orbitor (cnc) and it does make a manual sinker muuuuuch better, hyd or ZNC however ZNC allows better control for undercuts and threads.
3R use to offer a Z lock for manual machines in addition to their orbicut unit,they called it 'optical depth control' have never used one though,had to be fit to your specific machine. Elox/AGIE also had a orbitor interface on their Mondo series, used a Mondo 3 for about 6 years and it was in the software/screen but we never used it, an option or interface that wasnt on our machine, told the orbitor to activate at certian depths I think. I understand that some offbrand ZNCs have low quality Z ballscrews that dont last long,combined with encoders may not be a very accurate machine very long. PM me if you need some additional info on orbitors and manual sinkers I can give you some more info/ leads.
Lifting height: ca. 1800 mm lifting capacity in kg: 5400 kg dist. Between pillars (laterally): 3200 mm GfZoProof Cb sbiyrfxjbm track width: 960 mm weight of the machine ca.: auf Anfrage t space requirements of the machine approx.: L:8,0xB:4,0xH:2,0 m Hydraulic Jack - With Alignment applicable for vehicle repairs! Yvt8yhrr 4 column lifting platform is equipped with support arm locking for security and a axle measuring equipment system. The lifting system is based on a hidraulic drive with wire. Manufacturer: HOMAG, Type: KF 20/30/QE/30 Softforming, Year: 1997, Control: NC 21, Year: 1997, Min-max edge material mm: 0,5-3,0, Work piece width min-max mm: 220-2600, Min.-max.
Rto Form 20 Download
Workpiece length in mm: 150, Min.-max. Workpiece height in mm: 10-60, Min-max feed m/min: 5-30, Soft forming: yes, Axis control: no, Zerspanereinheit: yes, Contact milling from above and below quantity: no, Machining cracks: yes, Hot melt soft forming unit: yes, Kappaggregat: yes, Rollenmagazin: yes, Mehrfachdruckzo.
'CNC machining centre FORMAT 4 C-EXPRESS 920 CLASSIC Working dimension X: 4.500 Copwovx Working dimension Y: 920 Working dimension Z: 50 Number of routing spindles: 1 Main motor power kW: 3,3 Rotation speed max rpm: 24.000 Tool clamping system: Collet Boring spindles vertical: 9 Horizontal drilling spindles in X: 4 Horizontal drilling spindles in Y: 2 Machine table: Feed-through technology Interface for.dxf data: Yes Special workpiece clamping system: Clamp gripper Safety device: enclosed cabi.